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Music Hi and welcome to our podcast Shockers Learning Out Loud. I'm your host, Dr. Amber Anderson. And I'm your host, Dr. Pam O'Neill. Join us as we discuss everything online in adult learning. Welcome to Shockers Learning Out Loud. I'm your host, Dr. Pam O'Neill. and I'm your co-host Dr. Amber Anderson. Today we have a guest speaker. Her name is Dr. Carolyn Spear, and she is the director of the Office of Instructional Resources. Welcome, Carolyn! She does dabble in teaching online classes. I do dabble. I'm a dabbler in the teaching of online classes. I've been teaching online classes since 1999, and I do think it's gonna take off eventually and become something really popular. It's gonna be something. do that thing where you go doctor yeah just call me doctor. Yeah so I googled you yesterday and you teach a lot of different classes. I do. What are you teaching right now? So I teach we'll start with the one that's my straight-up love language I teach in the political science department because my initial background before my PhD was in political science that's what my is in. I have a master's degree in political science and civil rights law and civil justice kinds of things and social justice kinds of things and I know what it is. I really do have a master's degree and so I've taught government classes for over 30 years and it is a labor of love. These are interesting times when it comes to government and so I think that somebody who really likes to teach it kind of has an obligation to and so I do that but my full-time gig. I actually do that kind of as a part-time side thing. Mostly for Wichita State, I teach in the College of Applied Studies and I teach statistics, research, learning theory, pedagogy, that kind of thing. I mean she does it all. Instructional design. Okay you brought up a really good point there, Amber, that Carolyn kind of skipped over a little bit and I want to talk to you to talk about your PhD and your dissertation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was, I am a wildcat. I have my PhD from Kansas State and my degree is in adult and continuing education. My dissertation specifically looked at adult first-generation college students. So the idea of the research was that we were looking at people who definitely did not consider even coming to a college environment straight out of high school. They went into a probably an Yeah, working, raising families. Working, raising a family. Or whatever, you know, taking care of family members, whatever they did. Took on adult roles. Didn't come into this environment right out of high school and didn't choose to until after the age of 25. And so... I was looking at this in the early 2000s that there wasn't a lot of research in that population of students. Most first-generation research was looking at those folks right out of high school coming into this environment, but I looked at adults coming into this environment and specifically how they adapted and what were the sort of things that helped to make the adaptation of this environment easier for them. And just so you know, Carolyn, you probably all are. but I was able to even do the same thing basically that was my dissertation was first-generation adult learners and different kind of aspect looking at them but there still isn't that much you know research on but I think that's one of the reasons we do this podcast is for our adult learners to at least let them know that hey we're here we can help we see you yes yeah so you mentioned teaching I think that's a really good segue to one of the questions I had about teaching in Blackboard just to be straightforward we are talking about teaching in Blackboard. Okay teaching in Blackboard is what I do for a living we can do that all day. In your opinion what makes a discussion successful? How do you discussions but respectfully in a safe place. Go ahead, add more hard things to this question. Oh, yeah, I'm so sorry. This sounds like more than one question. All of those questions are hard. How do we not just say, oh, yes, I agree, and that's my reply? OK, so first and foremost, I want to point out a thing that if anybody's ever heard me speak, they've heard me say on this topic, which is if people can fall in love online and never meet in real life, they can go to class online and learn. OK, that is a lower standard than falling in love. So we know we can fall in love. but we won't even, this is for adults, but we won't talk about other things that people can do online. There are lots of things that people can do online. And this is something that is easier. So first and foremost, I think it's important to walk into an environment believing that this is a learning environment, that a discussion board is your specific example, that a discussion board is an environment where we can genuinely interact with other people. So I think that that's number one. is just that attitude-mail piece. I'm here to learn, I'm here to discuss this topic, and I wanna discuss this topic. The thing is that attitude, that's always there. There are always some students who have that attitude, and many students don't share it for a variety of reasons. I think sometimes folks get into one or two discussion boards and they have a bad experience, and they assume, oh, this is just a thing I don't like. I'm just gonna try to get through this as quickly as I can because I don't like this thing. I would argue that it's really the past experiences that you haven't liked and that you could really like the discussion board. So look for those other people who are there to have a genuine conversation, see what you can share, try to have that. There are a lot of things your instructor can do to try to improve that experience, but from a student perspective, just straight up what can I do as a student, get in there and read what you're supposed to do. You mean follow instructions? Follow the instructions. If it asks you to do some reading or some whatever content from the module or the unit or the week or whatever, do that first. If it asks you to do it, answer the question the way that it asks you to do and then actually read what other people have to say and work to engage with them. So what I mean by that is it's fine. I actually said this to Amber. Oh, that's a good question. I think I did. It's a good question. That's fine. I agree with you. But you gotta use that as a jumping off point for something else. Right. It can't just be that. So you know, what do you think about political science topic? What do you think about the First Amendment? Oh, I like the freedom of speech. Yay, freedom of speech is great. Okay, good. You know, that's wonderful. Why? Right, exactly. What does freedom of speech mean to you? How do you understand that concept? And then when I read what you say about it or what you say about and by the way I indicated Amber and then Pam. Thank you for doing that. You're welcome. I am an accessible educator. Then I need to say more than oh Pam I agree it is important to have freedom of speech in America yay America you know or whatever. We need to go beyond that and that's something a student can do and that once we start getting some voices that do that the discussion will improve. Yeah it'll populate. Yeah it'll populate. from there you'll pull people along with you but if you go in and say this reminds me of a quote I heard a long time ago it said too much agreement kills a conversation for sure it does you know you've been asked me about AI but can we jump right to it yes so Carolyn what do you feel her how do you think what do you think about artificial intelligence an excellent question Pam thank you what triggered AI well yeah what triggered it is that I can feel I mean the Aren't listening yet and yet as we have this conversation I can feel some of our listeners going I don't want to do that I want to just barely engage because I'm uncomfortable sharing my thoughts my feelings my points of view in this environment I could be wrong or what if I what if I offend what if I upset someone right? What if I don't what if I have a sentence fragment? I've heard that I have sentence fragments I don't even know what those are if I do that here people will be embarrassed with me and bear embarrassed in front of other people, whatever. So I can imagine someone sitting listening to this having that really negative reaction. And this is actually a great place for generative AI. I require it of my students. You can go to Chat GPT, which is called Open AI, which is free, don't pay for it, you don't need to. Or you can get the Microsoft Browser Edge and use the Bing plugin for AI, which is free. Or you can go to Bard, which is Google's AI, free and you can say I want to debate with you on this topic or I want to talk about this topic so if your instructor has put in a discussion board question and you really aren't comfortable talking about it yet you can have a pre-discussion with AI now I am NOT saying I would not encourage you then to just take what they said and put it in the discussion board that would be cheating and also not it's not gonna help you yeah but the but that pre-discussion that parts in that cheating that's a really good use of you can imagine what other people might say, gets you used to hearing different points of view without being offended, without worrying about causing offense. The AI, you're not gonna offend the AI. So I think that's a really good way and something that students now have available to them as a tool that even a year ago they did not. I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna jump in and say okay you were saying you know go to these places and to get chat GTP No, that's so and I really don't I know it's out there. I know what it does, you know, but For some of our adult learners. Do we just Google chat GPT? Then that's the best way to find it. So and also maybe in the show notes for this we can do that some direct links It's always you know, I get being concerned about googling things and not knowing where you're ending up I think if you want to just literally Google something I would Google Bard AI in Google because Google is going to take you to Google's tool called Bard AI. They are for sure going to take you to the right doorway. And Bard is a great... How do you spell that? B-A-R-D. It's actually named after Shakespeare. That's what people called Shakespeare was the Bard. Okay, so it's a nod to our intellectual history as humans in the West. That's cool. How... I've taught online for a number of years now, and I think one of the myths that students often assume is that they can take an online class and be anonymous. Like, say you're a shy person in real life, so you kind of sit in the back of the class. in person, can you do that in an online class? I feel like you've set me up to say why not. There are things in Blackboard, and you mentioned that we're... the context of our conversations within Blackboard. Within Blackboard, you have the opportunity or the option to put your picture up in your profile. That is not something that you have to do. Although you can if you would like to have a picture and I would just say, hey, put a picture in there. You can have a picture that you feel like represents you. So people will, adult learners, lots of cats and dogs, or kids, children, pictures of their children, or just anything that you feel like, you know, I can think of one person who had a football logo, you know. So there are certain kinds of ways that you can have a kind of anonymity, a sort of, the online environment is strangely intimate feeling. And so there are some things that we can do to try to feel a little bit more removed. But ultimately, the online environment has your name on it every time you do something. Sure. So, well, you know, if I were teaching a class of 50 people and I look out over, without my glasses on, and I am a lady of a certain age, now and I don't have my glasses on. I look at Oversea Faces, I might not absolutely know who I'm calling on, you know. especially toward the beginning of the semester because it's hard to focus on that. There is a kind of anonymity that being in groups in person has that this environment doesn't have. But you can have some anonymity. But ultimately, the best courses are courses that create a community of learning. And participating in that community is something that will get you the best outcome. You also get to make rules about yourself and how you want to... E. participating. So, you know, no, you shouldn't be fully anonymous. I should hope that you'd be willing to participate and also there are varying degrees of that. To me it almost sounds like a person could almost reinvent themselves online because I'm thinking, you know, I'm an introvert and kind of shy in different spaces, depending on that. But when I have the time to sit and think about what I'm going to type and respond, I will come across, I think, much more confident than I do in real life. So I would almost, and maybe I'm wrong in saying this, and please correct me if I am, in that you can almost create a different personality online than a more confident one. Because there's a space provided to you to safely interact. Right. And that's what I love about online. Yes, yeah, there's time. Yeah, I'd point that, yeah, Pam's point that there's time to just stop and think. That's fine. As we get older, we don't necessarily... respond verbally as quickly as maybe we did when we were younger. At the same time, we do have the life experience and also the cognitive development to understand things at a very deep level. And it's fine that can take a hot minute and yeah online classes do account for that time. I like the idea of reinventing yourself. When you said you can reinvent yourself, I thought for... I honestly don't think I even existed as a person until my children were grown And at that point I think I invented myself rather than reinvented myself. I definitely was involved in that. I never thought about that. I was always in some role someone else gave me until then. Right, yeah. But yeah, this is a place for invention and reinvention. We would call that from a... learning theory perspective, this is a transformative opportunity. This is a place for transformation. I think some of our parents who come in can really relate with what you're saying. I know I'm thinking about two women my own age who are coming in and I kinda feel like they are, as you said, inventing themselves because for so long all their identity was tied up maybe to a partner and or children. So, yeah, thank you for that. That's the ultimate definition of an adult learner. Yes, yes, you're absolutely, absolutely. I don't think that you need a particular gender identity to feel like, oh, okay, maybe now that I'm in my middle years for those of us who are, I've arrived. Right? And if you're an adult who are not, you're not there, don't, that's one of the cool things about moving on in life. Yeah, and figuring out what you want. But our adult learners are super driven. They know what they want. get out of their way. Very task oriented, very goal oriented. Yes. That's all the research says. Yep. So Carolyn, tell us about the faculty instructing our online classes. Why is it that in general the classes look similar but they're sometimes they look a little different instructor to instructor? So this there are going to be some similarities because we are for the most part all in the same of us in Blackboard. You might well have an instructor who says I don't like or I don't understand Blackboard and so we're gonna use fill in the blank Microsoft Teams or I'm gonna do everything from email and Dropbox or something. That's not typical but that can happen. So we do see some of those structural differences but when all of us are teaching at Blackboard they're just certain you know the walls are where they are. These courses are kind of look a little similar one to the next especially once we get into you have more courses in the in a blackboard ultra format rather than we're gonna talk about that I think is a separate issue. So they will look somewhat the same from course to course but they can look really different. That is true, that is what we used to call in debate back when I was in high school, something that's inherent. It's inherent to our culture in higher education that we truly, genuinely, to our core value, diversity and diversity shows up in lots of doggone ways and so you might get you might have an instructor you think oh I just love the way that they organize sure I love the way they present I love the kinds of assignments they have you may have another instructor you don't feel that way about them yes but the fact of that difference that's part of the education it's not a way that it's broken we don't need to align and bring that other person into the fold different set of values and that's something that we're you know exposing ourselves to. That's part of what this environment is whether you're in person online hybrid. Yeah. Right. I mean we're all navigating those weird spaces of what we like and what we don't like and how we learn so it makes total sense. And how that can change even in a person what you like. I was I think simple that so I've been doing my own students will notice that I have a bunch of videos in I'm often wearing the same shirt in like half of them because I tend to do them all on the same day for class. And some people change their shirt. I think Amber would change her shirt, but I don't do that. I think you're right, Kim. I don't do that. And I don't, because I don't care, you know, I did them when I did them, but I also leave little flubs in there. I tend to, when I'm really thinking, and this is true, you will notice it in this, I get a little flubby vocally when I'm talking and thinking at the same time. I don't have that facility, some people do. If I have a lot of facility with what I'm saying, I am not thinking. It's just a thing, I'm talking about myself probably. And I leave those things in my videos. I just leave them. But some instructors labor over their videos, have perfect videos, everything just exactly perfect. And you know, if you're somebody who is distracted by imperfection, you're not going to like my videos. If you are distracted by perfection, I tend to be actually kind of distracted by perfection. then you wouldn't like those and that's okay. The difference of experience that is part of the educational. Well, that's part of the educational experience of this place. Right. Yeah, and it's real life. Wow. I'm just gonna interject this real quick. Carolyn is sitting over here and she's spewing all this and I'm just sitting here. I'm spewing. You are spewing, but that's what I love because I am totally engaged and I am listening and I'm sitting over here nodding. I'm telling you she's busting. sitting here nodding our heads and so... And she makes these analogies that are just amazing. Yeah, yeah. I also look like I'm conducting an orchestra when I talk and I'm aware that Pam, as soon as she did me, she's like, Carolyn's over here spewing. She immediately like did my hands as well. Carolyn is talking with her whole body. And by spewing, I don't mean that negatively at all. I mean, there's just so much information and I'm trying to take it all in because I think a lot of our adult learners... are like this, I will take it in and really consuming what you are saying and I think that's part of what our adult learners do and they like. So thank you for that. As an instructor here at WSU, do you have a preference in how students contact you? What do you think? Where do you think they should start first in the course? Do they email you? Do they go to the syllabus? Do they go to the question? Well, many online courses are going to actually have a place that says start here. You should start there. If it offers you one, if it doesn't, then if there's a place called Introduction or whatnot. And usually in that area, the instructor is going to tell you how to communicate with them and also what to expect from them in terms of reply. So I have a start here folder in which I always have a welcome video. I'm always wearing the same shirt. You'll notice it if you're one of my students. I just I gotta know Right now I'm wearing a very pretty I think it's sort of blue flowery shirt and it's going to feature heavily in my videos Okay, I was just wondering what you were gonna be wearing. I don't know why I was doing videos where I came here actually And I'll continue it looks good on you by the way. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. It looks good on camera for whatever reason It just does Anyway, so I will have I have a video in there and I usually tell about myself course, the expectations of the course, how it's organized, and also then how to communicate with me. I think it's typical for instructors to want to be communicated with either through email or through the course messages tool in Blackboard, and usually if they like one they hate the other, so that's fine. Although if you do use the course messages tool in Blackboard, I will just say for a student I would use that, and then tick the little box that says send as an email so you can actually do both things. And the nice thing about sending course messages you have a record in your blackboard that's permanent that you did send that communication and at what time. If you just send an email, if you send it through blackboard you're not gonna get a copy of it, it depends. Some blackboard environments don't even allow for that. So if it were me and I were a student I'd send a course message, tick the box that says send as an email, unless I say call. I had one instructor years ago who would only accept phone calls. That's true, we have different languages. person yeah I'm the email generation myself I like email give me a minute to think right it gives you space yes how flexible are the due dates in courses I think another myth that students have often asked about was oh up and finish it all in like five weeks and then be done with it and then that will be my semester. Is that possible? It depends on who the instructor is. You're probably, if you want the answer to be no, you're asking the wrong person. In my own classes I have a flexible due date system and it is completely inflexible on one issue that you have to submit your discussion boards by the due date. You can't cluster all your posts on the on due date, you have to spread them out. I have a bunch of rules about that. And you have to, you can't get too far ahead in the discussion boards. So if I have somebody who's like, I'm going out of town for military service and I leave in October, can I get everything done? Then I will work with them and make sure the discussion boards are open for them. But otherwise, no, you need to be in there when other people are in there because that is your peer-to-peer interaction. And we can't, I can't give that to you some other way. It's not something we can make up. Take assignments late. I don't need to hear why I know that especially my online students who oversample for being adult learners have Everybody it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. They're don't everybody here is an adult right here Which test is an adult and we have adult things going on? Yeah Yeah, even you know kind of jump off that just for a little bit We always talk about how busy our adult learners are But you know what, let's be honest, even our traditional students, they're busy. They're leading a real life. They have parents that they're, you know, jobs to and kids and I think you see that online as well because some of our online learners are traditionally aged. So shout out to them. Yeah, Wichita State represents our community. We're here to serve our community and our community is filled with grown-ups. As a consequence of that particular thing, I actually tend to have the cutoff for my class a little bit early, so beyond which I will not accept something. So, you know, I've been like, oh sure, give it to me late, that's fine, but the day after that day, no. And that is because that one student is not the only student who's stopped by now grading. And I need the time to grade and to reflect upon their growth and all of those things before I feel like I can ethically assign a grade to them. So I need that time. at the end of the semester. I think that's what's great about online courses is that it does it is flexible but you're also going to be paced with set due dates. Yeah, yeah you are. So I wanted to ask you about what your dedicated learning space is because when I was running my dissertation I hated being in like a really quiet place and you could hear a pin drop. drop. Yeah, that is too stuffy for me. Also, I couldn't be home with the TV on listening to stories of crime or whatever because then I would be over here listening to crime. Right. So my go-to place was... I feel like we learned a lot about you in those sentences. Thank you so much. As I scoot a little bit away from Amber, rethinking everything I said and done. Unless I'm studying crime specifically. So I'm best in places like coffee shops because there's noise. but not noise I have to pay attention to and I can focus and that's really where I wrote my dissertation was coffee shops. Interesting. My dedicated learning space really is inside my own head so... Do you live there rent-free? I live there rent-free now I've paid the mortgage on my own darn head and I live there rent free so I tend to put noise-canceling headphones I don't want to hear the dog on pen drop either because I want it quieter than that. And so I put my reading glasses on, I put a big over the ear set of noise canceling headphones. I got the Sharp ones from Amazon for like 50 bucks. They weren't as expensive as the Bose ones and they work great, I can recommend them. And I focus. My entire reading and learning space is no bigger than a circle my arms can make in front of me and no bigger than, you know, head. Okay, I'm I focus I, I I have a lot of weaknesses as a learner, as everyone does, they have their list, but my big strength is that I'm really good at focusing. Great. You Pam? I'm a lot like Carolyn. I need the quiet as much as I can, but I think that, you know, that dedicated learning space to where you know if you're going like with your laptop in front of you or something that you know you are there to study. You're gonna be productive. And other people know you are there to study. Good point, yes. Yes, I was very fortunate and still in that I lived by myself. But yeah, I think there's having that cue and letting, you know, if you are an adult learner with kids or partner or whatever it is, they know what your dedicated learning space is too. So maybe, you know, I don't know, do you sit down and talk to your family member? Sure, I think so. Yeah, would they sit and study together? This wouldn't work for everybody, but what I told my own children, I was a personal aged college student initially, but I stayed in college forever. We didn't even talk about all the degrees I have. I have a ridiculous number of them. It's ridiculous. It's stupid and it's only because I really like credentialing. So I've been, you know. She's also a chef. I have. I most recently, I graduated with my most recent degree in 2020, which was a master's degree after my doctoral degree here at Wichita State. So what was I saying before I was... A dedicated learning space. I told my children, and again this might not work for everybody, but it did work for me, was for the next hour long, say half an hour, whatever it is, I'm Carolyn, not mom. If you need Carolyn for something, you can interrupt me. But if you need mom, it needs to wait. You know, if it's just a service task that you require. Yes. Carolyn would be the one who drives us to the hospital, you know. Oh sure. But that helped my kids once they got, you know, a little older to understand that I have... I have multiple identities too. It's not just... It's good for them. It's good for them because it helps them to see how you set your own limits personally. So I think it's really helpful to have a talk with... The family. Yeah, the people who are in your life regardless of what brought them there. Yeah, what your dedicated learning space looks like. It's really awesome. You know what's weird is that I'm a regular meditator. Amber probably just was like, and it took her 27 minutes to mention it. Because it's amazing it took this long. But I can meditate anywhere. Really? Absolutely anywhere. I don't need it to be quiet. I can meditate in your coffee shop while you're working. I can meditate in your silent house. I can meditate waiting for a train on 21st Street because I live on the west side. Yeah, it's weird. Interesting. But if we're learning, no, I need it to be quiet. Yeah. Gotcha. Look at that, yeah. I am running out of questions and I could talk to you all day. I really could. Right, yeah, I feel like I could too. So wrap this up, Anderson. My last question would be, us something we don't know about online learning? I think the most important thing that I can say about online learning is that it's just learning. Learning is this gift that we give to ourselves, it's a gift we give to our families, we give to our community, we give to our posterity. When we... broaden the ways that we can use our own minds, we change our lives in ways we couldn't anticipate before we did that. I am dedicated to being an online instructor because I believe in the equity of that space. We are able to bring educational opportunities to people who could not otherwise get to them for whatever reason, whether it's time shifting or it's distance or it's just, it's physical obligation, it's something. Online learning is learning and it's a thing that we all of us will do across the entirety of our life. learning, it's just a particular aspect of it and we are doing that to make ourselves and our world better. Thank you so much for coming today and chatting with us. You're welcome. Thank you. I've got some new quotes I can use. The quotes, I cannot with her. I know right. Thank you Carolyn. Professional educator, we can do this all day. Thank you for having me, it was a lot of fun. All right. Super fun. When we're out.